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Re: Stix/Unicode/MathML/mathfont glyph tables

from taco hoekwater ...

    After visiting the STIX site and reviewing that MathML entities and 
    mathfont Tables, I am getting just a little confused. The current 
    task for me is to identify the total list of math-related glyphs that 
    are needed (whether available in current fonts or not), and to create 
    an index of glyphs that are both needed and *not* in any currently 
    available font.

things have changed a great deal since march.  much is not reflected
at the stix site; in fact, most of the work done over the summer is
*not* there yet.

    The problem is in the first section. There are just to many tables 
    and I am quite uncertain which ones I need to merge to get the 
    desired overall table. The 35 Stix submission tables obviously do not 
    contain all glyphs (I assume the ones that are left out are the ones 
    that are already in Unicode). 

the last hypothesis is true; there is quite a bit in unicode, and
those are not included in the submission tables.

    I really need an editable table of all chars so as to generate an 
    overall index (so that I can later insert font/glyph codes). This 
    means I need to sort out all these existing tables, and that leads 
    to some questions:

    - Is ISO 9573-13 a full subset of STIX (guess so)?

i'm not quite sure what you mean by "a full subset".  all of 9573-13
has been included in the first cut -- the file stix-tbl.asc -- but
after discussions with representatives of the unicode technical
committee (utc), i have removed quite a few items from the list to
be submitted.

    - What about the things in 8859's Annex that are not in 9573-13?

do you mean 8879 (the sgml standard)?  if i remember correctly, the
annex was removed from 8879 by an amendment.  all the public entities
in the annex were moved to 9573, although not all to 9573-13.  anything
relevant to math should be covered in the stix tables

    - Am I correct in my assumption that MMEXTRA no longer exists
      (or only defines non-marking entities)?

hmmm.  it has been so long since i worked with this segment (it has
been superseded) that i don't remember exactly what it contains.

    - Do the Unicode Reference Blocks (from the STIX site) contain *all* 
      math-related glyphs from current Unicode?

that was my intention.

    - How to read those blocks? What are the squares, and why are some   
      of the squares empty?

the squares are (i believe) shapes of items copied from the unicode
site; the empty squares are (again, from memory) items for which the
copying was not successful.

    - If I merge the Reference Blocks with the STIX private blocks, does 
      that give me *all* glyphs?

it would have in april.  there have been quite a few changes since
then in the underlying tables, including some additions that are not
yet posted on the web site.

    - Are the private indices from MathML the same as for STIX?

not necessarily.  for one thing, when i was assigning the private
indices, patrick ion was not always available, and i forged ahead
trying to get things done rather than waiting for answers.

    - I'm not sure, but I seem to remember from a previous investigation 
      that there were glyphs in mathfont that do not appear in the STIX 

this is possibly true.  (my brain has turned to mush.  exactly what
are you referring to when you say "mathfont"?)  i would have to check.

    - Finally: I'd be very, very pleased if somebody would send me a zip 
      file of the HTML+gif tables from STIX and MathML. I can only fetch 
      them from the WWW the hard way using a regular browser, and "save 
      image as" for a couple thousand images does not sound funny at all.

i will try to do so.  i have only indirect access to this material
from another machine, and i may also have to copy the files one by
one, although i can do it by ftp.  (believe me, you have my heartfelt
sympathy on this one!)

general update:

i have posted the current ascii tables that underly the html tables
to a "bnb" subdirectory of the main STIX area.  they are
    stix-tbl.asc -- the complete collection
    stix-tbl.submit -- the collection to be submitted
for previous versions, patrick has transformed these to the html
tables with a perl (?) routine he created for that purpose.  i don't
have that facility.  patrick is now in france on study leave -- i
will make sure he gets a copy of all the relevant e-mail, and ask
him to create new versions of the files, which either he or i can
then post.

the wg2 meeting begins on september 21.  the submission will be made
to that meeting; i am now cleaning up loose ends, and trying to obtain
in-context documentation of items that are likely to be controversial.
i have been led to believe that some items (but it's not really clear
exactly which ones) will be found acceptable as logical extensions to
what's already there (say a down-arrow where an up-arrow is already

i know that the various alphabets are going to be controversial, and
for those, the approach we are taking is that even though they may not
have fixed meanings, they are used as variables with different meanings
in the same context, and if math is to be presented unambiguously at a
browser level (which is one stated goal of this submission), it must be
possible to distinguish between the different alphabet shapes -- and
the only way that browser developers are likely to provide what's
necessary is if it is recognized in unicode.

it is very likely that, even if the majority of the request is accepted,
there will be a residue of items that will be questioned.  i'm hoping
it will be very small, but it will definitely mean that some things
will be carried over to the next utc and wg2 meetings.  if there's
anything new now, it will have to wait.
							-- bb